Surface Level
A weekly show hosted by longtime friends Jordan, Damon, and Tony, explores the complexities of the Black and Queer experience. Through personal stories, dynamic guests, and curious conversations, this series offers a nuanced understanding of identity, race, and sexuality that goes beyond the surface level, with a touch of humor and a fearless willingness to challenge the norm.
S10 E12 · Wed, March 05, 2025
Hiding In Plain Sight
Damon, Jordan, and Tony are curious – where’s the line between secrecy and privacy? This National Black HIV/AIDS Day, we had the privilege of hosting Harlem Stage Presents: Surface Level Live, powered by Gilead Sciences. We are grateful for those who were able to join us in person, and we’re beyond excited to share the experience digitally with our Surface Level Insiders who couldn’t be there. During Part 2 of this special series, we are excited to welcome producer, writer, and director Patrik-Ian Polk to our Surface Level family. We continue the conversation with a unique perspective on sexual health from a member of our community who lived through the AIDS crisis. We also discuss how his beloved work, such as Noah’s Arc , has addressed issues related to sexual health, the evolution of expectations surrounding the disclosure of HIV status over time, and the fine line between secrecy and privacy. It was an honor to have this conversation with someone we admire, and we are excited to share this raw and honest discussion with our audience. We know a lot, but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S10 E11 · Wed, February 26, 2025
The Age of Pleasure
Damon, Jordan, and Tony are curious – is Queer pleasure a privilege? This National Black HIV/AIDS Day, we had the privilege of hosting Harlem Stage Presents: Surface Level Live, powered by Gilead Sciences. We are grateful for those who were able to join us in person, and we’re beyond excited to share the experience digitally with our Surface Level Insiders who couldn’t be there. During Part 1 of this special series, we explored our connection to pleasure in the age of PrEP. We discussed how modern medicine has created an environment where queer men no longer need to fear sex. We also examined the new stigmas that have emerged from these protection measures, and we shared our thoughts on how we should speak to each other about sexual health. Additionally, we addressed the generational divide in attitudes toward safer sex practices as a preview of what's to come in Part 2 of this discussion. We know a lot, but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S10 E10 · Thu, February 20, 2025
Beyond The Surface Level 10
Damon, Jordan, and Tony are curious – are you ready to go beyond the surface level? We end our growth journey and 10th season with a tradition we hold dear—responding to questions and comments from you, our Surface Level Insiders. We laugh, share personal insights, and push back against the inquiries and opinions shared throughout the season. We can't wait to share more parts of this journey with you. Until next time… stay curious. We know a lot, but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S10 E9 · Fri, February 14, 2025
Gurl, Bring Back Gatekeeping
Damon, Jordan, and Tony are curious – has access to the internet reduced the quality of art? In Season 1, we explored the desire for people to use the internet to stunt and fabricate their lives. In this episode, we take that conversation further by examining the positive and negative effects the internet has had on art. We're thrilled to welcome Durand Bernarr, Grammy-nominated singer, songwriter, and artist, to our Surface Level Family. Together, we explore the impact the internet has had on perceived talent, whether the internet could benefit from a quality control department, and parts of Black Queer culture we wish had stayed private. With so many varying views on this topic, we’re excited for you to join in as we dive into the final topic of the season. We know a lot, but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S10 E8 · Wed, February 05, 2025
Gurl, Release Your Wiggle
Damon, Jordan, and Tony are curious – can freedom and the need for validation coexist? In Season 1, we explored authenticity and living in our truths was interrogated over and over again, and today we’re going to have a conversation about how perception and validation shape us—and the freedom we find when we finally let go and “release ya wiggle.” We’re thrilled to welcome Jonté Moaning true trailblazer in dance, fashion, and queer artistry.to the Surface Level family. We explore the need to perform versions of ourselves on social media, how validation plays a role in our ability to thrive, and explore the moments when we feel most free. We know a lot, but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S10 E7 · Wed, January 29, 2025
Gurl, Stay Woke
Damon, Jordan, and Tony are curious – how do we balance resistance and protecting our peace? In Season 1, we explored the sacrifices needed to make Black queer lives matter. Today, we ask: what does resistance look like in 2025? With political unrest, DEI rollbacks, and an election that left many Black Americans feeling isolated, how do we keep fighting without burning out? We reflect on the role of Surface Level in activism, how Black identity is shifting in politics, and the ways we’re protecting our peace for the next four years. We know a lot, but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
Wed, January 22, 2025
Gurl, You Good?
Damon, Jordan, and Tony are curious – how does loneliness effect Black Queer identity? In Season 1, we explored the disconnect we sometimes feel towards our hometowns in pursuit of our dreams. Today, we go further, centering the loneliness many Queer individuals feel for existing outside of accepted norms. We are excited to welcome Keith “Icy” Parris, beauty influencer and disability advocate, to our Surface Level family. We explore how digital platforms have created both online community and further isolation, how our own standards of personal access can contribute to isolation, and whether we have ever been the culprit in isolating others. The line between protecting your peace and exclusion is fine—where do you draw that line? We know a lot, but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S10 E5 · Wed, January 15, 2025
Gurl, We're Just Friends
Damon, Jordan, and Tony are curious – can failed romance become friendship? In Season 1, we explored how we navigate platonic friendships. Today, we take it a step further by discussing the intersection of past romance and current friendship. We'll examine past relationships through the lens of our present partnerships. As queer people, many of our relationships overlap, and we'll explore how this affects our communication with current partners, as well as the line between trauma responses and the perception of nefarious intent. The reality is that the queer community—particularly the Black queer community—is small. So, when navigating life and love, how can we ensure we don’t close ourselves off to great people simply because of how a relationship began? We know a lot, but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S10 E4 · Wed, January 08, 2025
Gurl, Who Raised You?
Damon, Jordan, and Tony are curious – who has shaped our Queer identities? In season one, we explored our relationships with our fathers. Today, we go further by bringing our “Gay Mothers” on the show to shed light on the people who have shaped our Queer journeys. We are excited to welcome Corey Baker, Anthony Woodburne, and George Gary III to our Surface Level family. Each of us has a separate conversation with the people who have been most impactful, especially during our years of Queer discovery. It is often said that Queer people experience a second adolescence, as we spend the first one often hiding parts of who we are. These individuals were the guiding lights we needed during that stage of our lives, and our relationships with them are integral to what Surface Level is today. We know a lot, but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S10 E3 · Wed, January 01, 2025
Gurl, You Tried It
Damon, Jordan & Tony are curious – when is criticism friend or foe? In season one, we discussed the environment of cancel culture. Today, we go further in examining public critique and when it is helpful—and when it is not. We are honored to welcome Lena Waithe, actor, producer, and screenwriter, to our Surface Level family. Together, we explore the societal boxes we are often defined by, the importance of cultivating community both on and off screen, how social media chatter does or does not affect the art we create, and the stories we tell. This episode is one we are truly excited to share as we begin the journey into 2025. We know a lot, but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S10 E2 · Wed, December 25, 2024
Gurl, Who Gone Be The Boy
Damon, Jordan & Tony are curious – where do we stand on toxic masculinity? In season one, we discussed the obsession with masculinity in the queer community—chasing "trade," butching it up around straight people, and learning to embrace our femininity. Today, let’s examine where we stand on toxic masculinity. We are excited to welcome Sailey Williams, creative director, photographer, and publisher, to the Surface Level family. Together, we explore the desires of "masc for masc" gays, the inclination of some queer men to distance themselves from femininity, and how both masculinity and femininity can thrive within our community. We know a lot, but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S10 E1 · Wed, December 18, 2024
Gurl, Are Yall Open?
Damon, Jordan & Tony are curious – how varied are our views on non-monogamy? We are excited to welcome you to Season 10 of Surface Level: Gurl, Grow Up, where each week we will revisit a different episode from Season 1 through the lens of growth. In this first episode, we explore the topic of romantic relationships and how our experiences with non-monogamy have evolved since recording our first season. We discuss the experiences that have led us to our current beliefs, whether relationships are stronger when open from the beginning or at a later point, and any rules we have in our individual relationships. This topic truly highlights the range of opinions among the hosts, and we are excited for you to join in on the conversation. We know a lot, but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S9 E16 · Wed, October 16, 2024
The Personal Is Political Pt. 3
Damon is curious – how do anti-LGBTQ+ laws impact the Black Queer community, and what’s being done to fight back? In this final episode of our 3-part mini-series, Damon is joined by Dr. David Johns, CEO & Executive Director of the National Black Justice Coalition, Tabytha Gonzalez, Human Rights Specialist for the NYC Commission on Human Rights, and Olivia Lux, drag artist, actor, singer, and musician. Together, they dive into the legislative battles that disproportionately affect the Queer community, especially Black and Brown folx. From anti-trans laws to attacks on drag performances, we discuss how these harmful measures are shaping the political landscape—and what Black Queer leaders are doing to make their voices heard. As we close out the series, we look at how personal experiences often drive political action and explore what political issue hits closest to home for our guests. We know a lot, but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S9 E15 · Wed, October 09, 2024
The Personal Is Political Pt. 2
Jordan is curious – how is politics shaping the daily lives of young Queer Americans? In this episode, we continue our 3-part mini-series with a focus on the youth vote and political engagement. Jordan is joined by Jay Jones, first Trans President of the Howard University Student Association, Kevin Ortega-Rojas, host of Here’s Why News and co-host of ByLatinMen Podcast , and Herby Revolous, culture critic and creator. Together, they dive into how young people are interacting with politics online and the ways these interactions are shaping real-world outcomes. From school safety to social media censorship, they explore the unique challenges faced by younger generations in today’s political climate. As we navigate topics like gun violence and the role of social media in political campaigns, we’re reminded of how much the youth vote matters—and why their voices must be heard. We know a lot, but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S9 E14 · Wed, October 02, 2024
The Personal Is Political Pt. 1
Tony is curious – how will this election effect Queer healthcare? We welcome you to part one of our three-part miniseries, “The Personal Is Political,” in partnership with GLAAD. This series is centered around the current political landscape and will explore issues with a focus on Black and Queer communities. Tony is happy to welcome Lala B. Zannell, Senior Campaign Strategist at the ACLU; Kris Chessen, co-host of the Bad Queers Podcast; and Zach Stafford, journalist and co-host of the Vibe Check Podcast, to our Surface Level family. In this first episode, we interrogate abortion care as an issue not just for cis women, discuss the misinformation surrounding gender-affirming care, and explore how HIV stigma impacts the spread of HIV. We close each part of this series by giving our panel a chance to highlight the political issue that is most personal to them. This is not your boring political show; it is our kitchen table—a place to talk like real people about increasingly urgent issues. We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S9 E13 · Wed, September 04, 2024
The Deliverance
Jordan, Damon, & Tony are curious – when will folx learn to trust Black women? This week, we're thrilled to welcome director, producer, and screenwriter Lee Daniels to our Surface Level family. We’ll dissect the theme of trusting Black women in his new film, The Deliverance . We’ll also highlight some of the Black women who have helped shape our perspectives, address the unique challenges faced by Black trans women, and explore why Lee consistently creates complex work for this widely underrepresented group. We’re excited to return with fresh content between seasons and hope you enjoy it. We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S9 E12 · Wed, August 21, 2024
Beyond The Surface Level 9
Jordan, Damon, & Tony are curious – are you ready to go beyond the surface level with us? With this episode, we close another chapter in the journey of Surface Level . For the ninth time, we open the floor to questions from you, our Surface Level Insiders. We explore a range of topics, including dating, sex, work life, parenthood, and more. It’s a fun way to wrap up this season. We’re excited to take some time to develop the next part of this story. Until then… stay curious. We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S9 E11 · Wed, August 14, 2024
Pornhub
Jordan, Damon, & Tony are curious – what role does porn play in our understanding of sex? We round out Throb , our season on sex, with an exploration of our past and present relationship with pornography. We discuss our initial introduction to porn and the positive and negative impacts it had on us as young adults. We then explore its role today, both privately and with a partner. We close by discussing sexual desires we have seen on screen that we are interested in exploring in real life. We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S9 E10 · Wed, August 07, 2024
Sorry, We're Not Sexually Compatible
Jordan, Damon, & Tony are curious – how important is sexual compatibility? This week, we explore the value placed on sexual compatibility when considering romantic partners. We discuss our role in fulfilling our partners' various desires, how honest we have been about our own desires in new relationships, and methods of fulfillment that do not rely solely on our partners. Long-term partnerships are complex, with sex being just one aspect for many. Is sexual compatibility a deal breaker, or is it not an issue at all based on your relationship style? We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S9 E9 · Wed, July 31, 2024
Bedroom Playlist
Jordan, Damon, & Tony are curious – are we ready for Queer men to sing about sex? This week, we're thrilled to welcome music artist serpentwithfeet to our Surface Level Family. We'll dive into the overtly sexual themes of his latest album, Grip , and examine how these themes have been received by the community at large. Are there differences in how we perceive romance versus sexual intimacy in music? And how can we support queer male artists with the same enthusiasm we show to beloved female pop stars? We’ll wrap up the episode by sharing some of our favorite queer artists who are telling powerful stories about intimacy. We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S9 E8 · Wed, July 24, 2024
HIV Is Not A Crime
Jordan, Damon, & Tony are curious – do HIV criminalization laws increase stigma? This week, we are excited to welcome Robert Suttle, a social justice advocate, to our Surface Level Family. We'll be discussing his personal experiences and advocacy work concerning the impact of HIV criminalization laws on Queer communities. Many of these laws, enacted in the 80s and 90s, do not align with current scientific understanding and perpetuate stigma and shame. HIV status is a private health matter and should not be used as a weapon against vulnerable populations. In this episode, we explore the harm caused by using legal punishment to address a health crisis. We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S9 E7 · Wed, July 17, 2024
Sexual Media Pt. 2
Jordan, Damon, & Tony are curious – are you sexual on social media? We're thrilled to announce a two-part crossover episode with special guests, Busy Boys Uncensored. In part two, we welcome Jah and Sekani into our Surface Level family. Together, we delve into how sex and dating have permeated everyday social media apps. Is there shame associated with expressing sexuality or stepping outside of gender norms on these platforms? We conclude with some personal disclosure about aspects of our sexuality that might surprise those who only know us through social media. Sex, as we've discovered, is everywhere; our interactions with it vary across different platforms. We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S9 E6 · Wed, July 17, 2024
Sexual Media Pt. 1
Jordan, Damon, & Tony are curious – are hookup apps in their flop era? We're excited to announce a two-part crossover episode featuring special guests, Busy Boys Uncensored. In part one, we welcome Mayce and Damontae into our Surface Level family. Together, we delve into the culture of "the apps" and their profound impact on our sexual interactions. We explore generational differences, questioning whether these platforms have made connections more or less meaningful, and ponder if we now have access to too much of a good thing. We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S9 E5 · Wed, July 10, 2024
Are You Clean?
Jordan, Damon, & Tony are curious – what language should we use to discuss STIs? Part of maintaining a healthy sex life involves regular screenings for STIs. Over time, the way we discuss this topic has taken a negative turn. The question "are you clean?" has become synonymous with STI disclosure, adding public shame to the personal stigma people feel if they test positive. We discuss how to approach these conversations with sexual partners and address the stigma surrounding discussions about HIV in the media. Finally, we share advice we've learned over time on how to manage these conversations effectively. STI and HIV disclosure should not be sensationalized or shamed. We aim to contribute to reducing stigma in this week's episode. We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S9 E4 · Wed, July 03, 2024
Chasing The High
Jordan, Damon, & Tony are curious – how do we reduce harm when drug use and Queer sex intersect? This week, as we delve into a sensitive topic, we welcome Andrea Rodriguez, Community Cultivation Coordinator for Dance Safe, to our Surface Level Family. This episode explores the realities of drug use among Queer folx and how to provide comprehensive information and support. Harm reduction destigmatizes drug use, and organizations like Dance Safe provide participants with fact-based knowledge about the effects of various substances. We also examine the phenomenon of “chem sex” among Queer folx and discuss ways to support friends and family whom we suspect may be overindulging. As cultural attitudes toward drug use evolve, we believe our discussions and support for individuals should evolve as well. We encourage everyone to keep an open mind, as this episode sheds light on an important topic that taught us a great deal. We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S9 E3 · Wed, June 26, 2024
Sex Ed
Jordan, Damon, & Tony are curious – what is medical fact vs fiction when it comes to Queer male sex? This week, class is in session, and we are thrilled to welcome Dr. Leo Moorei, the Medical Director for Clinic Services at the Los Angeles County Department of Public Health, to our Surface Level Family. We're diving deep into aspects of sexual hygiene, pleasure, and health with an individual who truly has the tea. We pride ourselves on creating a platform that is fun but also offers educational information to our target audience. Find a quiet room, take out your notepad, and get ready—you won’t want to miss a beat. We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S9 E2 · Wed, June 19, 2024
Healing In My Hoe Phase
Jordan, Damon, & Tony are curious – how can casual sex be used as a tool for exploration and empowerment? During this dynamic episode, we welcome storyteller and activist Tarek Ali to our Surface Level Family. Tarek contributes to a conversation centered on the complex relationship that queer men have with casual sex. Casual sex is often viewed simply as a coping mechanism, but we'd like to interrogate that idea a bit further. Like everything in life, these are experiences from which there is a lesson to be learned. From developing agency over our bodies to deepening our relationship with pleasure, these experiences can be amazing teachers. So whether you are at home, at a bathhouse, or vacationing, give yourself grace in casually exploring your desires. We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S9 E1 · Wed, June 12, 2024
Hookup Horror Stories
Jordan, Damon, & Tony are curious – what impact does hookup culture have on Queer male intimacy? For our ninth season titled “Throb,” we are embarking on a journey to explore all aspects of sex and sexuality. We kick off this journey with a topic familiar to queer men: hookup culture. Where have we found the most joy in hooking up, and what memories do we hope to bury? How does instant physical gratification affect our ability to connect emotionally with romantic interests? We also delve into the safety implications of anonymous encounters. Personal stories make this episode a thrilling ride, and it's just the beginning of a season that is sure to get everyone talking. We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S8 E10 · Wed, February 14, 2024
Beyond The Surface Level 8
Jordan, Damon, & Tony are curious – are you ready to go beyond the surface level with us? We made it through another cycle of the Surface Level journey. Through this season of reflection, we hope that we were able to introduce you some new figures or expand your knowledge of familiar faces. We believe truly that there is much to learn from our Queer ancestors and elders and are proud that we did our part in preserving their legacies. Now once again it’s your turn to ask the question so strap in as we wrap up the eighth installment of our curious voyage. We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S8 E9 · Wed, February 07, 2024
Fellow Travelers
Jordan, Damon, & Tony are curious – with time can Queer love exist without shame? In this episode, we are excited to welcome actor Noah J. Ricketts to our Surface Level family. Exploring the themes of his incredible character Frankie from the miniseries Fellow Travelers we delve into the expanse of how Queer people express love. We close our season of reflection exploring how the themes of shame and personal triumph play equal roles in our journey to love ourselves and other Queer folx. This season has given us much to look back on to grow our own perspectives on life we hope this final installment encourages everyone reflect on who they are today and constantly strive to be a better version of that person tomorrow. We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S8 E8 · Wed, January 31, 2024
C.R.E.A.M.
Jordan, Damon & Tony are curious – does cash rule everything around you? This week we talk about the ever-looming presence of capitalism. What experiences have shaped our relationship with money, have we ever felt looked down upon because of material things we lacked, how have we navigated mainly White professional spaces as Black Queer professionals. An often-quoted scripture says that the love of money is the root of all evil. We explore how we find the balance of meeting our economic needs but not being consumed by the constant capitalistic need for more. We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S8 E7 · Wed, January 24, 2024
Queens Of Comedy
Jordan, Damon, & Tony are curious – where is the line between funny and offensive? In this episode, we are joined by comedian, actor * writer Jay Jurdan. The artform of comedy has been in the spotlight in recent years as we all try and define the line between jokes and insensitivity. We explore the artform and the need for specificity in discussing its subjects. Is the concept of punching down a hard rule or should there be nuance instead of hard rules? Depending on who you ask those answers can vary greatly, and we explore our individual points of view on the topic. We close with a very Black moment of laughing at our pain and sharing ridiculous life expereinces that we think would make a hilarious sketch comedy. We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S8 E6 · Wed, January 17, 2024
Beautiful Gowns Pt. 2
Jordan, Damon & Tony are curious – is fear of femininity the thief of joy? This week we revisit our relationship with the expression of femininity in what we wear. Are we uncomfortable with expressing ourselves outside of the confines of the gender binary? Is that fear greater for men within our community than for women? We challenge what we’ve been taught but also interrogate who has the right to own this aesthetic in the future, if anyone at all. The beauty in finding new ways to outwardly express who we are is a joy we revel in. So in the future let’s be more masc, fem and everything in between. We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S8 E5 · Wed, January 10, 2024
Fake Smart, Real Dumb
Jordan, Damon & Tony are curious – what place does AI have in the creation of art? This week we bring a fresh topic to our listeners debating the benefits and concerns around artificial intelligence. We focus in on generative AI and its effect on the world of art. Should we look for ways to make the creation of art more efficient and democratize its various forms for more people? Should we view art forms and creation as sacred where the journey is as valuable as the outcome? The world is changing and we are curious about how to best navigate what at this point is the inevitable. We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S8 E4 · Wed, January 03, 2024
Don't Be A Drag, Just Be A Queen
Jordan, Damon, & Tony are curious – why are conservatives so scared of drag queens? In this episode, we are joined by drag phenom Olivia Lux. With her first-hand account from her time on Drag Race, we use the life and lessons of RuPaul in this week’s reflection. We explore our first impressions of the art form filled with surprise and delight. Olivia gives us insight into the people and experiences that crafted her personal journey. We dive deep into the current assault on drag from conservative politicians and what we believe is the motivation behind it. We end by highlighting the joy drag can bring, both through sharing stories of the people behind the persona and by highlighting the craft of its artists. We know a lot, but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social media and let us know your thoughts.
S8 E3 · Wed, December 27, 2023
Never Again, For Anyone
Jordan, Damon, & Tony are curious – if your humanity is conditional is it humanity at all? Surface Level began as a show reflecting the lives, experiences, and conversation of its three host. To have a season live during the ongoing Middle Eastern conflict and not share our experience processing, learning, and developing our views towards the situation felt inauthentic. We do not believe we are experts on Middle Eastern relations but human beings witnessing a humanitarian disaster unfold in real time. What do the views of Black Queer folx have to do with this topic? What is the key driver behind the more vocal support of Palestine particularly from communities of color? What resources have helped us make sense of this and develop thoughtful views on the topic? These are a few of the questions we explore during this episode. We ask that this show serve as a spark to think, reflect, to research, to learn, and to see all people as human. We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S8 E2 · Wed, December 20, 2023
The Risk It Takes To Bloom
Jordan, Damon, & Tony are curious – what are the risks it takes to bloom into who we really are? In this episode, we're honored to be joined by trans activist and the author of "The Risk It Takes To Bloom: On Life and Liberation," Raquel Willis. To kick things off, we engage in an icebreaker game that pays homage to Sylvia Rivera, a trailblazing trans activist from the 60s and 70s. Each of us then reflects on the pivotal moments when we embraced our sexuality or gender identity. Diving deep into the themes of Raquel's book, we explore the intricacies of the trans experience and culture. The episode concludes with a thought-provoking discussion on the future of the Queer revolution, emphasizing the crucial need to amplify the voices and experiences of Black Trans individuals. We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S8 E1 · Wed, December 13, 2023
Coming Out Is A Scam
00:00-Introduction 00:54-Recap since season 7 10:00-Unveiling the season 8 theme: "A Reflection" 10:46-Engaging in a game inspired by Little Richard 18:04-Exploring the toughest aspects of our journey to self-acceptance 29:37-Thoughts on creators who reject or conceal their queerness 35:51-Delving into what aspects of our lives we choose to keep private 41:25-Examining the question of oversharing in our stories 46:13-Celebrating and recognizing a queer individual we admire Jordan, Damon, & Tony are curious – where do we draw the line between living out loud and our right to privacy? We start our season of reflection focused on the life of Little Richard. We explore the complex relationship that many of us have with living our Queer truth in public. We explore how social media has added to that complexity and the line we draw between sharing and privacy on Surface Level. Like icon Little Richard: friends, family, religion, and public opinion may limit our ability to live out loud. In reflection, we hope to rid ourselves of that pressure and live most honestly in the future. We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S7 E12 · Wed, November 01, 2023
Make Me Water Pt. 2
Jordan, Damon & Tony are curious – how have our views around relationships become more fluid? This week we offer a second look at fluidity; this time through the lens of relationship types. We welcome Jahad J.C. Carter, host of the Hopeless Romantic Society, back to the Surface Level table. A topic that is enriched through the technicolor lens of Queer experience; we are sure you all will have a lot to say. Are our views around relationships similar to how we grew up? Have they been varied based on the partner? or are we still just figuring it out? All levels of experience are valid as we share views that hopefully make you think differently, even if you disagree. Get ready for the ride as we close this special bonus series. We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S7 E11 · Tue, October 31, 2023
Make Me Water Pt. 1
Jordan, Damon & Tony are curious – how have our views around our sex lives become more fluid? Surprise we’re back for a special two-part bonus series! We’re adding the fluidity of water to our season, first tackling the topic of sexuality. We welcome Jahad J.C. Carter to our Surface Level Family. Host of the viral digital series, Hopeless Romantic Society, Jahad brings his special brand of humor and humanity to our show. We are excited to explore the ever-evolving topic of sexuality, and how our perspectives have been influenced by personal experiences and public perception. Are we brave enough to go against the grain and explore our desires? Let’s see. We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S7 E10 · Wed, August 02, 2023
Beyond The Surface Level 7
Jordan, Damon & Tony are curious – are you ready to go beyond the surface level with us? Once again we sign off after this very special season grounded in earth, freed through wind, and emboldened by fire. We hope we’ve succeeded in our mission to make you more curious about topics that are not typically broached. Special thanks to all of our amazing guest in sharing their stories and experiences in making the journey of Surface Level that much more special. So here’s our love letter to you our Surface Level Insiders, your questions shape the end of each season and we are happy to share our experiences on things you’re curious about. So farewell for now as we take some time to keep living, growing, and preparing more stories for the future. We know a lot, but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S7 E9 · Wed, July 26, 2023
The Girls Are Fighting
Damon, Jordan & Tony are curious – how can healthy disagreement lead to personal growth? Closing the fire series, our penultimate episode for season seven explores what happens when tempers boil over. We recognize that even in our closest relationships there is bound to be conflict, but how we approach these situations make the difference in our lives. Will we accept uneasy conversations as an opportunity to grow or let ego take over? Will we assert ourselves to those around us while still showing them respect or get down in the gutter? Depending on the day the answer is different but we hope to learn a bit more each day even if some lessons don’t always come with a smile. We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S7 E8 · Wed, July 19, 2023
Bad Bitches Only
Jordan, Damon & Tony are curious – how does aligning with traditional beauty standards benefit and harm our community? Pretty privilege, the hot-button topic that has been at the forefront of many kitchen tables has made its way to Surface Level. This week we welcome Obio Jones, Digital Creator and LGBTQIA+ Advocate to our Surface Level family. We ask ourselves, can we work against a system that we benefit from? The age of social media has thrust physical appearance into the forefront of anyone looking to garner attention for their work. Is it fair? No. Is it reality? Absolutely. When operating from a place of privilege, we believe it is the work of those individuals to recognize it, speak out about it, and use the attention, not just for their own advancement, but to create a better community for all of us. We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S7 E7 · Wed, July 12, 2023
Black Excellence Is A Scam Pt. 2
Jordan & Tony are curious – how can we broaden what it means to be Black and excellent? In this unprecedented bonus episode, we revisit our season opener, 'Black Excellence Is A Scam,' from a fresh perspective. While Damon is absent this week (rest assured, he'll be back in full effect next week!), we are excited to welcome Eboni K. Williams, an Author, Attorney, and Host, to our Surface Level family. Eboni, the first Black Housewife on Bravo's Real Housewives of New York City (RHONY), is a disruptor in the media landscape who continues to offer a unique take on Black Excellence. Join us as we delve into the intricate relationship between Whiteness, classism, and mental health, and their influence on our perception of Black Excellence. We also touch on the polarizing 'bus driver gate' and the role of power in our romantic lives. Additionally, we address criticisms surrounding Eboni's time on RHONY. Prepare for a spirited and engaging discussion about a topic that our community can't seem to stop talking about. We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S7 E6 · Wed, July 05, 2023
Butch Queen On The Scene Pt. 2
Jordan, Damon & Tony are curious – how does the work of Queer nightlife curators impact our ability to find community? In closing out Wind series, we are excited to pay tribute to a space that has long represented freedom for Queer individuals: nightlife. This supersized episode of Surface Level is dedicated to the legacy of Black Queer nightlife giant, Frank Watson, who we lost earlier this year. We welcome 3 impressive curators in their own right to our Surface Level family, Joe Morris founder of Joe Morris Events and co-owner of Brunch Harlem, Micah Marquez co-founder of Deviant Events, and Chuck co-owner of Lambda Lounge Harlem and Club Lambda Brooklyn. From discriminations they have faced, to the complexities of managing large crowds, to the desire they have in curating brands that represent the broad desires of Queer individuals looking for community, we cover a lot. This episode was a fun one to be a part of so get ready for a wild ride. We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S7 E5 · Wed, June 28, 2023
The Stroll
Jordan, Damon & Tony are curious – how is the quest to not just survive but thrive unique within Black Trans experience ? In an effort to continue to introduce you to amazing members of our community this week we welcome Tabytha Gonzalez to our Surface Level Family. A human rights professional and a woman with a story that deserves to be told we speak with her through the lens of new documentary The Stroll streaming on Max. The Stroll tells the story of trans women of color who’s economic survival was tied to their time as sex workers in what is now New York City’s Meatpacking District. It is a story of hardship, love, violence, community, but most importantly resilience. Tabytha shared parts of her story on The Stroll and we are excited to go beyond the surface level with her here. We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S7 E4 · Sun, June 25, 2023
Pride & Prejudice
Jordan, Damon & Tony are curious – how do we protect our joy when pride is under attack? We bring you something special edition of Surface Level for Pride 2023! We are happy to share our favorite pride memories, delve into a conversation around the attack on Queer representation from conservatives, and offer a little bit of Surface Level drag story time because you know we love the kids(well Jordan and Tony do). Our joy is not optional so with equal parts celebration and defiance we offer you pride in the face of prejudice. We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S7 E3 · Wed, June 14, 2023
Parents Just Don't Understand Pt. 2
Jordan, Damon & Tony are curious – What was our parent’s journey in accepting our Queer identity? This episode will likely take the crown as our most personal level ever. This week we welcome Annette Epps, Teresa Randall, and Tony Jermin Sr, better known as our parents, to our Surface Level family. We explore the joy, surprise, pain, and confusion that defined our parents journey of accepting their Queer children. We hope that this episode serves as a possibility model for parents, children, and people generally that when you lead with love that bond cannot be broken. We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S7 E2 · Wed, June 07, 2023
Losing My Mind
Jordan, Damon & Tony are curious - How can we dismantle mental health stigmas and foster understanding? In this episode as we navigate the complex terrain of mental health. We welcome Jarred Denzel Keller to our Surface Level Family. Jarred, a Mental Health Advocate and Senior Press Secretary for the Human Rights Campaign, bears his truth for all to hear and see. Together, we shed light on the commodification of mental well-being, advocating for genuine understanding, compassion, and the urgent dismantling of stigmas. Prepare for an eye-opening discussion challenging preconceptions, cultivating empathy, and embracing a compassionate approach. Journey with us as we strive to create a society fostering support, acceptance, and genuine care for mental well-being. We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S7 E1 · Wed, May 31, 2023
Black Excellence Is A Scam
Jordan, Damon & Tony are curious – is Black Excellence doing more harm than help? In this thought-provoking episode, we challenge the notion of "Black Excellence" and explore the unrealistic pressures that surround it. This special episode was recorded in front of a live audience, marking an exciting milestone for our podcast. Together, we seek to redefine the true meaning of success and offer a fresh perspective on achievement. Join us as we navigate this transformative exploration, inviting you to embrace authenticity and discover joy on your own terms. Prepare for an enlightening conversation that sparks introspection and opens doors to new possibilities. We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S6 E10 · Wed, February 08, 2023
Beyond The Surface Level 6
Jordan, Damon & Tony are curious – are you ready to go beyond the surface level with us? Another season in the books for this journey that we call Surface Level. We have a blast connecting with our listeners through a series of audience submitted questions. We’re a bit off the cuff an we’re sure you’ll enjoy it. This season we’ve worked to create visibility for stories that aren’t often told. This isn’t good buy just a see you later as we prepare to offer more thoughtful conversations in the furture. We know a lot, but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S6 E9 · Wed, February 01, 2023
We Wear The Mask
Jordan, Damon & Tony are curious – who are we…really? This season’s penultimate episode forces us to look within in a very meaningful way. First we give language to the guiding principles that define us at our core, then we assess our intersectional experience as Black Queer people regarding what parts of our identity we are most comfortable with or not. Finally, we reflect on how the experience of building a public platform has amplified truths we previously ignored. We spend this episode looking inward, we hope it encourages you to hold up a mirror and do the same. We know a lot, but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S6 E8 · Wed, January 25, 2023
Pretty Hurts
Jordan, Damon & Tony are curious – why are men afraid to embrace beauty? If you walk away with one thing from this episode, know that if beating that face makes you happy, do it! We welcome Sir John to our Surface Level Family. Sir John, Creative Director and global make-up artist, brings a fun and insightful perspective to this conversation. As men, we tend to shy away from things that make us feel soft. This episode highlights ways in which we can be more confident in those parts of ourselves with some advice from a world-renowned expert. Remember, it’s not about what you’re doing, but why, so find joy through whatever it takes. We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S6 E7 · Wed, January 18, 2023
Black Pain For Sale
ordan, Damon & Tony are curious – is categorizing certain stories as trauma porn fair? This week is centered around the hot topic of “trauma porn”. We have seen various stories that highlight the painful history of Black Americans. Sometimes it feels that these are the only stories Hollywood wants to share about us. We interrogate the line between art sharing truth versus what can sometimes feel like a one dimensional depiction of Black life. As a people, we represent an infinite expanse of stories and experiences. Our pain is valid, but we are so much more. We know a lot, but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S6 E6 · Wed, January 11, 2023
Don't Ask Don't Tell
Jordan, Damon & Tony are curious – how does the approval of others lead us to hide parts ourselves? Today’s episode explores the idea of hiding parts of who we are to gain acceptance in various spaces. We welcome Elegance Bratton to our Surface Level Family. Elegance, the director of the critically acclaimed film The Inspection, speaks on his journey from Queer Marine to creative and how his identity colored relationships with people from his mother to superiors in the service. The title of this week’s episode, pulled from the now retired armed services policy, defines a policy many Queer people accept in various areas of our lives. We explore this and so much more so tune to hear what truths we are not telling. We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S6 E5 · Wed, January 04, 2023
I'm Never Drinking Again
Jordan, Damon & Tony are curious – how can establishing healthier relationships with alcohol? We are all guilty of the proclamation “I’m never drinking again” after a rough night on the bottle. Maybe that was driven by a desire for a good time or from a need to escape darker emotions. We explore those dueling motives in this episode. From CDC guidelines on recommended drinking, to personal stories on when we decided our relationship with alcohol this episode has it all. Start the new year with us reevaluating habits personal habits and trying to find a but more balance in 2023. We know a lot, but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S6 E4 · Wed, December 28, 2022
You Can't Sit With Us
Jordan, Damon & Tony are curious – how does self-hate create toxicity among Black, Queer men? Our show often highlights external factors that stifle our community, but this week is focused on self-reflection. Growing up as Black, Queer men we develop many defense mechanisms that manifest as self-hate. This hate is often reflected in the othering of people in our community whose experiences are different than our own. Part of the advancement of Black, Queer people is the embrace of all members of our community regardless of physical appearance, economic means, or social cache. A critical look inward is the first step to healing that we sometimes miss, this week we take that step. We know a lot, but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S6 E3 · Wed, December 21, 2022
You Ain't Black!
Jordan, Damon & Tony are curious – are the benefits of abiding by respectability politics worth the cultural sacrifice? Today’s episode gets into heated territory at times as we debate the benefits, or lack thereof, for following the rules of respectability politics. We welcome Kalen Allen to our Surface Level Family. Kalen, actor and media personality, adds a fresh perspective to our conversation through his rise to fame on the Ellen DeGeneres show. This is not an episode where we all agree, but we believe you will find value in each of our unique perspectives. We understand that rules are in place for Black Queer people, it’s up to each individual to decide the value those hold for their individual journey. We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S6 E2 · Wed, December 14, 2022
Sexual Healing
Jordan, Damon & Tony are curious – has our fear of judgment stifled our sexual liberation? Safe spaces are important for Black Queer people and that idea extending to sexual environments is no different. We have some fun exploring our personal do’s and don’t in these situations and highlight how we as a community contribute to each other’s liberation or shame regarding sex. We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S6 E1 · Wed, December 07, 2022
Invisible Life
Jordan, Damon & Tony are curious – what can we do to make Black Queer stories more visible? In this season opener, we highlight the cultural moments that have made us feel most seen, we interrogate the internal and external factors limiting further visibility for our community, and we discuss our hopes for further advancement of the Black Gay agenda. We welcome Emil Wilbekin to our Surface Level Family. Emil, the multi-hyphenated Founder of Native Son, whose mission is to harness the collective power of Black Gay/Queer men with the goal of ensuring that our voices, visibility, and lived experiences are elevated in all of the communities in which we exist and are never again disregarded. We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S5 E12 · Wed, September 07, 2022
Beyond The Surface Level 5
Jordan, Damon & Tony are curious – are you ready to go beyond the surface level with us? The finale to our fifth season further highlights our expanded commitment to community. We kick off by welcoming Steve Cruz, Strategic Giving Manager for the Ali Forney Center and Maddox Guerilla, an Ali Forney Center alum, to our Surface Level family. We were proud to raise money for AFC this season, an organization committed to protecting LGBTQIA+ youths from homelessness and empowering them to live independently. You will get to hear firsthand about the work they are doing and how they have directly impacted the lives of Queer New Yorkers. We then move into a game, themed on the standout moments from this season. We wrap up with one of our most fun segments yet, chatting through an array of topics all sourced from you, our beloved Surface Level Insiders. The reception you all have given Surface Level continues to amaze us and we hope to continue to bring joy to your lives through sharing our experiences. So, thank you for the support and until next time…stay curious. We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S5 E11 · Wed, August 31, 2022
We Can't Be Friends 2
Jordan, Damon & Tony are curious – what did we learn when traversing the toughest moments in our friendship? This week’s episode is quite introspective and discusses the evolution of our views on friendship in recent years. We play a game that gives our response to messy friendship scenarios, then discuss the experience of growing apart from friends, the rocky road we have traversed as friends in recent years, and how we are actively working to be better friends to those around us. This episode is the representation of years of ups and downs and the choice to still choose each other despite our differences. Having three personalities as large as ours is not always the easiest but we understand the roles we each play in our friendship dynamic and how that helps and harms our relationship sometimes. We are by no means perfect and we hope this episode serves as a ‘what not to do’ guide in your toughest moments. Transparency is a tenant of this show, so be gentle with us as we open up more about who we are and a friendship that is both stable and fragile at times. We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S5 E10 · Wed, August 24, 2022
Monkeypox, Chile
Jordan, Damon & Tony are curious – how can healthcare information best be communicated to Black Queer folx? This week’s episode takes a relevant look at healthcare discussions that started during COVID are now being renewed with onset of Monkeypox. We start as always with a bit of silliness in an animal themed game of ridiculous choices, then dissect our long term or evolving trust of the medical system, debate if the response to Monkeypox by Queer people is reflective of a lesson learned or based in vanity, and make suggestions regarding how government and media can better address the needs of Black Queer folx without creating further stigma. Healthcare for Black people is steeped in a lack of trust due to the history of the system not properly meeting out needs. Compounding that with the intersectional experience of also being Queer further complicates that for us. We hope that in addition to our brand of “edutainment” we can offer some facts about the state of monkeypox. Finally we encourage all of our listeners to get educated, get vaccinated, and stay safe. We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S5 E9 · Wed, August 17, 2022
Surface Level Live From Berlin!
Jordan, Damon & Tony are curious – how is the Black German experience different from that of Black Americans? This week’s episode is a special glimpse into our lives as friends sharing highlights from our experience at Berlin Pride. During the episode we play a game of Bop or Flop with various experiences we had on the trip, dissect the key differences we see between pride in New York vs our experience in Berlin, and discuss our tips for staying camera ready even if we partied all night. Berlin was our first outing as friends since before the pandemic. So much in our lives has changed and being able to share our experience through the lens of Surface Level is something we are really excited about. We are keeping it pretty casual this week so grab a glass of prosecco, put your feet up, and go on a little journey with us. We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S5 E8 · Wed, August 03, 2022
Bromance
Jordan, Damon & Tony are curious – how can we foster non-sexual male intimacy? This week, we explore the idea of intimacy between men both Straight and Queer. We play a game rating potential partners based on fun dating scenarios, then discuss how the stigma around sexuality has impacted our relationships with Straight men, if sex and intimacy can healthily exist with non-partners, and how we are presently expressing non-sexual intimacy in our relationships with other men. We welcome Teron Beal to our Surface Level Family. Teron is an award-winning songwriter and photographer using the art form to explore the concept of non-sexual male intimacy. He brings a thoughtful perspective regarding his journey in accepting his own sexuality and how that has impacted the intimate relationships he has with other men. Equal parts vulnerable and thought-provoking this conversation takes us all on a journey of questioning our preconceived notions regarding intimacy. We hope you do the same. We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S5 E7 · Wed, July 27, 2022
Death Becomes Her
Jordan, Damon & Tony are curious – how have our experiences with grief shaped how we want to be remembered? This episode starts with a fun game titled “giving up the ghost,” then delves into a conversation that is equal parts serious and fun. We dissect our individual experiences with grief, any anxiety we have surrounding it, our hopes for who will take care of us in our golden years, and close by sharing nontraditional ways we would like to have our lives celebrated. We are continuing to find conversations that are usually swept under the rug in our community. Death is typically approached with fear and grief by ignoring it. We’re addressing these topics head-on and expressing our hopes, our fears, and the things we admit we are uncertain about. Above all we hope this episode makes you think deeper, it surely did that for us. We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S5 E6 · Wed, July 20, 2022
No Means No
Jordan, Damon & Tony are curious – how is consent defined and exercised in our sex lives? This week, the idea of consent is reflected upon both personally and for its larger implications on society specific, to Black Queer men. We delve into the idea of blurred consent and the need for an explicit “yes” at all stages of sexual intercourse. We then turn the lens on the broader community to discuss cases of sexual trauma and abuse towards Black Queer men and the lackluster response from law enforcement. We welcome Rasheed Gonga to our Surface Level Family. Rasheed is the Program Director for Impulse Group, and an activist fighting for the rights of Black Queer men. He brings a perspective that makes the hosts think not just about protecting themselves but pushes us to be advocates for those who are afraid to speak up for themselves. Consent and sexual assault in our community are topics to be treated with respect and care and we hope to offer perspective on how to move to a place of healing for all of those affected. We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S5 E5 · Wed, July 13, 2022
Parents Just Don't Understand
Jordan, Damon & Tony are curious – how can Black parents better support their Queer children? This week we reflect on our experiences growing up in Black households - the good, the bad, and the downright ugly. We kick off with a game deciding if we need to “get the belt” to deal with rebellious children. Then launch into a discussion that focuses on past experiences but also forward-looking advice regarding tools that we wished our parents had when raising us. We welcome Dr. Lulu to our Surface Level Family. Dr. Lulu the multi hyphenated Pediatrician, Parent Coach, Author, Disabled Veteran, and Activist was an amazing addition to our discussion. As a Queer woman who is also the parent of a trans daughter, both her personal and familial experience added great depth to this conversation. Her goal is to help parents heal and be the best thing their children need right now. She serves as a possibility model for who Black parents can be, honing in on the idea that if trauma can be passed down through generations then so can healing. We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S5 E4 · Wed, July 06, 2022
CocoDorm.com
Jordan, Damon & Tony are curious – do storylines in porn perpetuate harmful stereotypes of Black Queer men? This episode starts with a fun game where each host discovers the type of “deviant” they are through a series of questions regarding our kinks or lack thereof. We then delve into a conversation regarding our introduction to and relationship with pornography, and debate both the harmful and healing aspects of the inclusion of Black Queer men in porn. Like most work environments systemic racism rears its ugly head. The question becomes, how does one balance real-world consequences in an industry that is built on selling fantasy? This episode is equal parts fun but also takes a serious look at a topic we typically only view as entertainment. We’re sure this will spark debates on social and we look forward to what you all have to say! We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S5 E3 · Wed, June 29, 2022
P-Valley
Jordan, Damon & Tony are curious – how does media visibility affect how we see ourselves? This week’s episode is an absolute treat. We dissect the value of visibility within media and how it affects the way we view ourselves in real life. This week we are all living in Nicco’s world and the host of Surface Level are along for the ride. We welcome actor, Nicco Annan to our Surface Level Family. Nicco plays the beloved non-binary character, Uncle Clifford, on the hit show P-Valley. We play a game themed on some of the fun and outlandish advice that the character would give. We then dive into the journey that has lead Nicco to a place of self love and the desire to show love, not just in his art, but in life. Thematically this episode is about humanity and the desire to show all aspects of it with the hope that we can all move to a more authentic place in our own lives day by day. We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S5 E2 · Wed, June 22, 2022
Masc 4 Masc
Jordan, Damon & Tony are curious – is a preference for masculinity inherently femmephobic? We kick off with a game imagining a world if we were girls, then launch into a discussion that centers around various facets of femininity as it relates to Queer cis men. We discuss our relationship with femininity, our opinions on “femme tops”, and what we are doing to make the world more accepting towards femininity in men. This is a fun take on a serious conversation that we are happy to bring you this week. We have spent years unlearning things we have been taught about our femininity while trying to find truth in our appreciation of masculinity. We have discovered we are three butch queens hoping to give you both. We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S5 E1 · Wed, June 15, 2022
The Black Gay Agenda
Jordan, Damon & Tony are curious – what can the current political system do to better protect Black Queer people? We are excited to welcome you back with a brief update on our time off between seasons. We then launch into a fun gay reimagining of the government for and by Black people. Our discussion is then centered around how the current political landscape is causing physical, mental, and emotional harm towards Black Queer people. This week we welcome Executive Director and Co-Founder of Campaign Zero, DeRay McKesson to our Surface Level Family. DeRay adds a point of view from an individual who has been doing the work as a former teacher and dedicated activist. We weave through topics related to gun violence, “Don’t Say Gay” bills, and trans identity. He poignantly said during the episode that, “the culture wars are here”, and we discuss what we’re going to do about it. We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S4 E15 · Wed, February 23, 2022
Beyond The Surface Level 4
Jordan, Damon & Tony are curious – are you ready to go beyond the surface level with us? The finale to our fourth season features the theme of community. We kick off by welcoming LaQuann Dawson, Creative Director of MOBI, to our Surface Level family. We discuss his experience with the organization and the parallel missions of creative space and a platform for Black Queer folx. We then move into a game themed on the standout moments from this season. We wrap up with one of our most fun segments yet, chatting through an array of topics all sourced from you, our beloved Surface Level Insiders. This season has seen our platform grow in ways we would never have imagined and we look forward to sharing this fun and candid exchange with you. So, thank you for the support and until next time…stay curious. We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S4 E14 · Wed, February 16, 2022
Shade Came From Reading
Jordan, Damon & Tony are curious – is the art of shade helpful or harmful in our communities? We play a game deciding which common statements are shade vs “no shade”, discuss the history of “the dozens” and shade in Black communities, litigate if throwing shade for sport is based in insecurities, and discuss ways in which positive defense mechanisms we’ve developed help combat a world that views us as less than. Black communities often live by the phrase “laugh at our pain”. This statement is further cemented in the Black Queer experience. Our take is that it’s all about balance. Are we people that need to laugh to stop from crying or individuals that need to heal from generational trauma? Or, are both things true at the same time? We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S4 E13 · Wed, February 09, 2022
Reading Rainbow
Jordan, Damon & Tony are curious – what do Black Queer stories look like when we write them ourselves? We play a literature-themed game, discuss our favorite Black Queer reads, discuss stories that we would write ourselves, then delve into a conversation around how Black Queer culture has informed the writing of our guest. This week we welcome New York Times bestselling author Michael Arceneaux to our Surface Level Family. Michael’s fun writing style takes a unique look at millennial problems, from dating to student loan debt. He brings a point of view that is equal parts funny, honest, and real. This is not an author who takes himself too seriously and that is why his books are resonating with a generation truly doing the best we can with what we’ve got. We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S4 E12 · Wed, February 02, 2022
School Gayze
Jordan, Damon & Tony are curious – how have HBCUs evolved to fit the needs of Queer students? We play a game that reminds us of our time at Howard, discuss the history and evolution of Queer communities at HBCUs with two educators, then end with speaking to current students and recent graduates about the hope they wish to see for future generations and the work that is still to come. This week we welcome educators Dr. Steven Mobley (Howard) & Dr. Kirstin Byrd (Hampton & Spelman), Transgender HBCU Queen Malay Simmons (Johnson C. Smith), former Mr. HBCU Jauan Durbin (Morehouse) & former Human Rights Campaign HBCU Program intern Janelle Edge (F.A.M.U.) to our Surface Level family. We are excited to offer perspectives on the HBCU experience that show how far we have come but ultimately where we can continue to grow. We hope you enjoy their stories and that any student attending an HBCU will feel seen and understand that their experience is as big a part of the history of our institutions as anyone else’s. We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S4 E11 · Wed, January 26, 2022
Case Of The Ex
Jordan, Damon & Tony are curious – how have you worked to heal from failed romantic relationships? We play a game titled, “Are You That Somebody”, detailing our own red flags when romantically involved. We then enter a convo with many highs and lows around how we have dealt with the ending of relationships. We further discuss the lingering feelings and how we worked through those, then laugh a lot about on how social media comes into play and awkward run ins with former partners. A relationship ending is not something we believe should be viewed as a failure. We have each learned valuable lessons that make us not just better partners in the future but better humans. Romance is hard and we don’t dare to say we are experts but we hope to stay curious enough to learn from the past. We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S4 E10 · Wed, January 19, 2022
Stop Blasian Hate
Jordan, Damon & Tony are curious – how can we strengthen the alliance between Black and Asian communities? We play a game of trivia highlighting Blasian artists, then launch into a discussion centered on the Asian American experience, and highlight ways in which we can create empathy between our communities. This week we welcome content creator and storyteller Johnathan Gibbs, artist and community organizer Will Lex Ham, and founder and creative director Steven Wakabayashi to our Surface Level Family. They offer their perspectives to an amazing conversation starting with dissecting the stereotype of the model minority and how it affects the relationship between Asian Americans and other minorities. We then discuss the lack of representation of Asian Americans in pop culture. We end by highlighting some of the struggles and triumphs of the Black Lives Matter and Stop Asian Hate movements. This conversation was special in how we’re able to highlight an experience in which our identities do not intersect. We look forward to sharing their stories and hope we do our part in pushing this conversation forward. We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S4 E9 · Wed, January 12, 2022
Gayfishing
Jordan, Damon & Tony are curious – why is same gender affection viewed differently between men and women? We play a game of would you rather in relation to some Queer notable figures, discuss the societal acceptance of affection between women compared to men, and sound off on the divisive trend of heterosexual men playing into Queerness for engagement on social media. Over time the line between gender identity and sexuality will become increasingly blurred. That journey, like our show, requires an examination of what is truly authentic versus participating in trends because of societal pressure. We hope this episode sparks conversation across all communities and continues to place focus on the humanity of all people. We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S4 E8 · Wed, January 05, 2022
Plant Kween
Jordan, Damon & Tony are curious – have you explored self-care through plant care? We play a game centered around what changes we will and will not be making in the new year, we the delve into a discussion around better ways we can care for ourselves this year, and the success or lack thereof we’ve had at being “plant dads”. This week we welcome gardener, educator, LGBTQ+ activist Christopher Griffin affectionately known as @Plantkween to our Surface Level Family. They give us some helpful information around using plants to be more mindful. We also discuss some of the history of Black Americans and gardening. Finally, they talk about what it has meant to use there platform to tell stories of Black, femme, non-binary folx. This episode is an amazing way to jumpstart 2022 in a meaningful way, we hope you enjoy. We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S4 E7 · Wed, December 29, 2021
Gay Dating For Dummies
Jordan, Damon & Tony are curious – what bad dating habits do you hope to leave in 2021? We play a game centered on common Jack’d scenarios, tell stories about our first time kissing another man, how our selectivity regarding partners has evolved over time, and bad dating habits we would like to leave in 2021. This week we welcome gay dating coach and couple’s counselor Lamont White to our Surface Level Family. We have a blast discussing the value of dating with intention and clearly communicating our desires for a partner. He also gives advice on how to approach the fine line of having clear expectations for a partner without putting an unfair burden on them. We had a great time recording this episode and are happy to share this with you as we end the year. We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S4 E6 · Tue, December 21, 2021
The Upper Echelon
Jordan, Damon & Tony are curious – how do socio-economic factors effect the relationships we have with other Black Queer folx? We play a game of high/low discussing the “luxuries” we can’t live without, give our take on the W.E.B. Dubois vs Booker T. Washington debate, rant about unwanted expectations individuals have when you begin to make more money, and litigate how economic status impacts our dating habits. Money and status are two things that can cloud the judgment of the best of us. Being both Black and Queer, our success represents advancement for two underserved communities. Our discussion highlights the balancing act of being in service to those around us while also creating space for individuals to create their own paths to success. We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S4 E5 · Wed, December 15, 2021
White Fragility
Jordan, Damon & Tony are curious – did anyone really learn to be an anti-racist? We play a ridiculously titled “You Ain’t Black”, discuss our thoughts on last years social “reckoning” one year later, and look internally at confidence we gained in speaking truth about injustice in any situation. This week we welcome author and political commentator Keith Boykin to our Surface Level Family. He discusses his favorite quote by Audre Lorde, his experience with activism in the 90’s, and gives important commentary around the history of White backlash in politics through the lens of his new book Race Against Time. This episode is equal parts fun and informative and we are happy to share. We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S4 E4 · Wed, December 08, 2021
Unpopular Opinion
Jordan, Damon & Tony are curious – is freedom of speech a right or responsibility? We play a game that exposes our own unpopular opinions, discuss how our thoughts of being cancelled have informed what we say on the podcast, talk about the polarizing nature of the court of public opinion, and how we manage relationships with people whose beliefs differ from our own. With the continuous outrage regarding public statements, this topic feels quite timely. Where is the line between accountability and compassion and how can we remain open to advancement without accepting bigotry? We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S4 E3 · Wed, December 01, 2021
Beautiful Gowns
Jordan, Damon & Tony are curious - how can fashion tell Black, Queer stories? This week Tony & Jordan fail miserably at a game of Black fashion trivia, we discuss our opinions on fashion vs style, our acceptance or lack of towards overtly fem clothing, and the personal and professional benefits of embracing fashion. This week we welcome Kinglsey Gbadedesin, CEO & Founder of K.ngsley to our Surface Level family. Kinglsey shares his experience launching a brand that grew out of his desire to give back to Black femme folx during last year's social justice movement. In his own words, everything he does is “for the girls” and that commitment has landed his signature tanks everywhere from major publications to television placement on the final season if Insecure. He is using the medium of fashion to tell stories from a place of honesty, representing his motto that he’d like to live from a place where there’s no lie left. The industry isn’t all beautiful gowns and his work is pushing our stories to the forefront. We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S4 E2 · Wed, November 24, 2021
The Nigerian Underground
Jordan, Damon & Tony are curious - how do anti gay laws affect your travel? We poke fun at the joy and pain of being podcasters, discuss our experiences traveling the world as Queer people, and have an in depth conversation with our guest regarding the Queer experience in Nigeria. This week we welcome OKTimileyin, activist, cast member of HBO Max’ Legend of the Underground and Host of Nigeria’s Queercity Podcast. Timi shares his experience navigating family and broader society while being Queer in Nigeria. His story is personal yet not unique in its many challenges. We are using our platform to amplify the stories of Queer people fighting for liberation globally. This was an enlightening conversation for us, and we hope to continue our work from a place of courage and not fear in the same way Timi has. We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
S4 E1 · Wed, November 17, 2021
Friends Without Benefits
Damon, Jordan & Tony are curious, do the best relationships start from platonic friendships? We play a game of never have I ever, assess the environments where Queer people meet, discuss the benefits of or lack there of in prioritizing platonic friendship over romantic attraction, and share our thoughts on casual sex between friends. We are excited to welcome you back with a fun topic on which we hardly agree. This one is a hot button within a community in which the dating and friendship pool is small and greatly overlaps. We know a lot but we don’t know it all so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.
Trailer · Tue, November 16, 2021
Season 4 Trailer
Jordan, Tony & Damon are Black, Queer, and Curious. Welcome to season 4 of Surface Level! #StayCurious
S3 E15 · Wed, July 14, 2021
Beyond The Surface Level 3
Damon, Jordan & Tony are Black, Queer, and Curious. What a ride season 3 of Surface Level has been! We’ve covered everything from sexual health, to hip hop, to gender roles in Queer relationships. We laughed, we debated, and now we are taking a look back. This week we answer questions asked directly from our Surface Level Insiders and discuss current events related to some of the topics. And like always, we find time to play a few games. This season we took the approach of amplifying as many voices on the Black Queer spectrum as possible. We close by going back to our roots and giving you a peek into who we are, how we think, and the work we’re doing to stand firmly in our own authenticity. We look forward to continuing the ride in the future and to bringing you more of the Black Queer experience we call Surface Level. #STAYCURIOUS
S3 E14 · Wed, July 07, 2021
No Face, No Case
Damon, Jordan & Tony are curious about the impact the “DL” narrative has had on both Queer and heterosexual communities. The idea of DL culture is one born out of a false narrative about Black Queer men during the AIDS crisis. Is there a difference between being “DL” and simply not being out? We discuss the problematic history of the term DL, if men are responsible for disclosing that they are involved with other men to a female partner, why the idea of DL men is fetishized in some Queer circles, and how those around us can become collateral damage in the messy process of coming out. We’re going out with a bang this season, with a touchy topic that the host do not all agree on. Queer experiences are layered and discussing how they right or wrongfully intersect with heterosexual people is complicated. In efforts to push ourselves and really interrogate what we have been told is and is not right, we are going there. So join the conversation on social media, this is one that touches the entire community.
S3 E13 · Wed, June 30, 2021
10's Across The Board
Damon, Jordan & Tony are curious about the historic role Black & Brown trans women have played in ballroom culture. For our final Pride Month episode, we are shining a light on the experiences of trans women of color. How has ballroom served as a safe space for Black & Brown trans women? We decide which outside activities we are excited about and which ones need to be chopped, our impression of the ballroom community, how the success of shows like Pose and Legendary have affected ballroom, how “passing” privilege affects the trans community, the role realness categories play in modern ballroom, and why Black and Brown trans women have served as leaders within this community. This week we welcome Lola Gucci, Overall Mother of the House of Gucci, to our Surface Level family. We discuss her experience on the ball scene as well as her personal journey as a Black trans woman. This week is both fun and at times emotional, but most importantly personal, as Lola shares her story for the first time publicly. So, join us in learning more about Queer voices from all walks of life.
Bonus · Mon, June 28, 2021
Gays As Old As Time (Bonus EP)
Damon, Jordan & Tony are curious how age impacts our perception of the world as Black, Queer men. In addition to this week’s regular episode we are releasing a bonus with messages from the host and our guests to our ten year old selves. We hope you enjoy, and please share with any younger person searching for a bit of guidance.
S3 E12 · Wed, June 23, 2021
Gays As Old As Time
Damon, Jordan & Tony are curious how age impacts our perception of the world as Black, Queer men. This episode features the stories of Black, Queer men ages 25-64. What role does age play in how we view the topics of relationships, Blackness, professionalism, Queer health, and Ageism. This week we test a new format where we asked several men the same 10 questions and shape our conversation around their responses. We cover everything from dating & sex, to how they navigate spaces that are not always welcoming to Black, Queer men, and we close by directly addressing the role age plays in interactions within our own community. Black, Queer stories are in no way monolithic and it was an amazing experience to hear so many varying perspectives on the same topics. One goal we have had in growing Surface Level is to amplify Black, Queer experiences outside of our own and this is our most ambitious project yet. So, join us in welcoming Deshon, Khalil, Steven, Dawon, E. Brown, Derrick & Toby to our Surface Level family, this is Gays As Old As Time.
S3 E11 · Wed, June 16, 2021
Affirmative (In)Action
Damon, Jordan & Tony are curious about how last year’s social justice movement affected Black Queer professionals. The social uprising sparked by the murder of George Floyd coincidentally fell in line with the launch of Surface Level. How did this impact our views towards the roles we play at work? We play a work from home themed game, discuss the action or lack there of in response to the events of last year, we revisit statements we made regarding assimilating during our season 1 episode titled the ‘Magical Negro is OOO’, and one host is challenged on his view that assimilation to corporate culture is a necessary means to a successful end. With one year under our belts, our anniversary lands in a similar way to how we started. We visit a conversation that seems straightforward but proves to be quite the hot button, sparking fierce debate. Corporate America is still playing catch up to last year’s lofty promises of change. We hope to do our part in continuing to evaluate our roles in being a part of that evolution.
S3 E10 · Wed, June 09, 2021
Masculine Sissy
Damon, Jordan & Tony are curious about the value of masculinity among Queer men. The debate regarding the embrace of masculinity is ongoing within Queer communities. How do we embrace our masculinity while recognizing the value our of femininity? We chime in on who we think the ultimate masculine sissy is, the uneasiness around the embrace of femininity, how masculinity and femininity play into how we interact with potential partners, heteronormative ideas that we embrace, and if we accept that there are expectations we should live up to as cis men. This episode is easily the comedic high point of the season. We are embracing a serious topic but per usual not taking ourselves too seriously. So find out what happens when you put three butch queens in a room to evaluate their masculinity. It’s the “verse” perspective this topic deserves.
S3 E9 · Wed, June 02, 2021
Blatino Oasis
Damon, Jordan & Tony are curious about the intersection of the Black & Latinx Queer experience. Throughout Pride Month, our goal is to amplify a multitude of Queer voices, starting with a crossover episode with BYLATINMEN The Podcast. What are the common and unique experiences of Black & Brown Queer folx? We play a game of superlatives between the two shows, chime in on pop culture, discuss the unique experiences of Latinx Queer people, discuss the need for races to support causes other than their own, and sound off on individuals we would really love to shut the fuck up! We welcome Angel, Kevin & Anthony of BYLATINMEN to our Surface Level family. This episode combines six big personalities into one really fun ride. In the spirit of collaboration we combined fun segments from each of our shows with an equal balance of fun and serious conversation. The experiences of Black and Brown communities are often conflated. We interrogate that idea to give weight to how we can be better allies in experiences that are shared and unique.
S3 E8 · Wed, May 26, 2021
Pay For Play
Damon, Jordan & Tony are curious about the fact and fiction regarding sex work. This episode covers the shame attached to what many consider the oldest profession. Why does American society attach such stigma to the sex work industry? We discuss the motivation behind entering the field of sex work, new laws focused on the decriminalization of the craft, the value placed on the lives of sex workers, the positive impact of the industry, and the overall role the industry is playing in normalizing sex. For this episode, we welcome Zola Bruce, Communications Director for The Sex Workers Project of The Urban Justice Center, to our Surface Level Family. Zola offers the dual perspective of both advocate and member of the sex work community. They give an amazing lesson on the joy of the work as well as the political battles fought to protect the safety of participants. We cannot wait for you to hear their unique perspective as it adds major clarity to a topic many people only know through uninformed assumptions.
S3 E7 · Wed, May 19, 2021
Kiss With A Fist
Damon, Jordan & Tony are curious about intimate partner violence within gay relationships. This episode delves into a topic not often spoken about among men in our community. What unique factors are at play when intimate partner violence includes two gay men? We start light, playing a game we coined as the lesser of two evils. We then progress into a conversation regarding the stigma attached to violence in male relationships, red flags in relation to violent partners, any experiences we have personally had with violence, where we should or should not place fault in a situation, and offer some advice to individuals leaving or healing from a physically violent situation. This topic, though highly prevalent, is rarely discussed. We hope to shine light on the fact that no one deserves violence, while also addressing the complex experiences that sometimes cause it. We acknowledge that in these scenarios, no one wins, and that healing should be the focus of everyone involved. So go on a journey with us that was both cathartic and nerve racking as we peer into one of the most personal moments so far on Surface Level.
S3 E6 · Wed, May 12, 2021
Skinny Legends Only Pt. 2
Damon, Jordan & Tony are curious about the individual experiences people have with their bodies. This episode revisits a topic that sparked a ton of feedback from last season, our relationship with our bodies. Are conversations around body image too binary? We discuss our personal insecurities (or lack thereof), debate what we got right and wrong in part one of this discussion, the motivation behind how we treat our bodies, privilege in conversation around body image, and how we’re working through said insecurities. This topic proved to be a lightning rod with our listeners and we’re sure this episode will uphold that legacy. We investigate the line between recognizing individual struggle while acknowledging systems in place that benefit some more than others. So go on a journey with us as this is definitely a topic that requires crowd participation.
S3 E5 · Wed, May 05, 2021
Adam & Steve
Damon, Jordan & Tony are curious about homophobia within the Black Church. This episode covers the institution that has had a huge impact on the history of African Americans, the Black Church. Why has the Black Church been so slow to openly embrace its Queer members? We discuss our favorite gospel club anthems, our history going (or not) to church, our views on spirituality vs religion, and delve into our guests journey from homophobic seminary student to a leader in affirming Queer people within his church. During this episode we welcome Michael A. Walrond Jr., Senior Pastor of First Corinthian Baptist Church, into our Surface Level family. We discuss what he believes it means to truly be inclusive in religion. If nothing else Pastor Mike is a story teller, he walks us through his journey of specific instances in his life that are sure to move our audience. Many Queer people have given upon the church but Pastor Mike definitely offers a counter point to the trauma we’ve experienced. This is a different type of conversation for us this week but come along as Surface Level takes you to church.
S3 E4 · Wed, April 28, 2021
Beatz, Boyz & Barz
Damon, Jordan & Tony are curious about homophobia within hip hop. This episode covers the music we love, with a culture that doesn’t love us back. Why is homophobia in hip hop still so prevalent? We try our hand at hip hop trivia, discuss heterosexual male rappers embrace of gender bending fashions, question the embrace of female rappers by Queer men, acknowledge that being Queer can sometimes eclipse an artist’s talent, and we get a preview into the upcoming work of a very special guest. During this episode we welcome Cakes Da Killa, rapper, poet & budding film maker, into our Surface Level family. We discuss the tightrope walk of being seen purely as an artist vs a conduit for Black Queer visibility. Cakes shares the lighthearted back story that lead him to his current career, then we delve into many of his upcoming projects. And if we ever had a guest who took us to task when we veered off course, they’d be Cakes! This week is a fun ride so join us in the studio as we drop some beatz!
S3 E3 · Wed, April 21, 2021
Before He Cheats
Damon, Jordan & Tony are curious about the cure for infidelity. This episode covers our experiences being on the giving and receiving end of infidelity. Do we as a society place so much emphasis on monogamy that we are setting ourselves up for failure? We play a game of infidelity-themed superlatives, discuss past infractions we’ve committed in relationships, what we’re looking forward to in future potential relationships, and society’s love of monogamy while shaming less traditional relationship formats. This week is sure to be a fun highlight of the season. We’re a focus group of three who’ve all failed at love, trying to make sense of what we’ve learned, and put that into practice. Not sure we’re topical experts here but like Anita Baker says, we’re continuing to “give it the best we’ve got!”
S3 E2 · Wed, April 14, 2021
Not Your "Gay" Best Friend
Damon, Jordan & Tony are curious about the experiences of Queer people with cishet allies. This episode breaks down our experiences with cishet individuals in our own lives. How can the most well-intended allies still perpetuate homophobia? We discuss coming out to cishet friends and family members, the differences in our relationships with straight men vs straight women, the fetishization of Queer men by women, parental aversion to having Queer children, and we share some advice for when you insist on hooking us up with your other gay friend. In this episode, we have a lot of laughs, although it’s still a topic that we take quite seriously. Allyship is a journey that individuals don’t always get right. Our hope is to offer some advice on how we can be more respectful of each other’s differences and place value on experiences even when we don’t understand them.
S3 E1 · Wed, April 07, 2021
ParTy N Play
Damon, Jordan & Tony are curious about the intersection of sex and health in the Black & Queer community. This episode builds on the success of “Undetectable”, our top performing episode from season two, by further delving into the topic of sexual practices and health. How have advancements in HIV treatment and prevention influenced our communities sex habits? We kick off with what we’ve been up to during our time away. Then things get real as we discuss our sexual habits in a “post-PrEP” world. We also get into the prevalence of party drugs among Black Queer men, and the role (or lack thereof) that the healthcare system plays in protecting us. In this episode we welcome DaShawn Usher, Founder of Mobilizing our Brothers Initiative and Programs Officer for Communities of Color at GLAAD, into our Surface Level Family. We discuss ways in which our community can support itself in relation to sexual and holistic health. We wrap up by highlighting resources that support all areas of Black Queer health and wellbeing. So if you’re curious, join us as we kick off season 3.
Trailer · Tue, April 06, 2021
Season 3 Trailer
Damon, Jordan & Tony are Black, Queer, and Curious. They say the third times a charm welcome to season 3 of Surface Level! #STAYCURIOUS
S2 E10 · Mon, December 28, 2020
Beyond The Surface Level 2
Damon, Jordan & Tony are Black, Queer, and Curious. Curiosity and vulnerability, the latter being the true addition to this season. Once again, we take a look back at the journey we know as Surface Level. We revisit some of the seasons most fun moments while delving deeper into some of its most personal. From barbershops, to sex, to politics we covered quite the range of topics. We gave the reigns over to our friend Corey Townsend, accomplished journalist, and correspondent, who put us in the hot seat. He held our feet to the fire on some of our positions stated throughout the season, while also bringing his own brand of Black and Queer shade. We expanded this season with the addition of guests, and production upgrades. At its core Surface Level remains the same, it’s a study in how we can be the most authentic versions of ourselves. It is a quest for knowledge regarding topics we are unfamiliar with. It is three Black and Queer voices yelling with care into the universe hoping we can be a small light in what has been a tumultuous year. #STAYCURIOUS
S2 E9 · Tue, December 22, 2020
onlyfans.com/surfacelevel
Damon, Jordan & Tony are curious about the shame we attach to sexual desire. This episode discusses a topic no one wants to publicly talk about while privately partaking. How has the shame attached to sex affected our exploration of it as Black Queer men? We discuss our sexual history, desires we have that we were once ashamed of, the things we wished we knew as baby gays, and play a fun game of naughty superlatives. This episode is not one to be missed, we laugh from beginning to end while addressing this serious yet comical topic. You will learn some unexpected bits about the hosts, so get ready to see a different side of Surface Level.
S2 E8 · Wed, December 16, 2020
Butch Queen On The Scene
Damon, Jordan & Tony are curious about the joy and pain the Queer social scene can create. This episode discusses our experiences in Queer social settings. Do the current social options represent the interest of too narrow a selection of Queer men? We discuss memorable club experiences, our ideal social settings, anxieties we face in Queer social settings, the Harlem social scene, and the defining elements of an upper echelon Queer social experience. We welcome Leon Curry to Surface Level. He is the creator of the infamous Trappy Hour party and man behind its boisterous social media presence. Trappy Hour has a following that includes big names like Issa Ray but more importantly aims to create a safe space for the Black butch queens of the world. We explore Leon’s personal experience from small town Florida to a Harlem staple with all of its unexpected turns. Black Queer safe spaces are a must in this world and this week we explore one that was created in our native Harlem. So join us as we explore what we affectionately call Club Surface Level.
S2 E7 · Wed, December 09, 2020
Skinny Legends Only
Damon, Jordan & Tony are curious about how we have contributed to the system of fatphobia. This episode discusses the pressures Black Queer men face in idolizing certain body types. How can we as a culture do more to stop the othering of fatness? We discuss key news headlines, the definition of fatphobia, the internal and external pressures to look “desirable”, the role appearance plays in how Queer men create friend groups, and how to speak openly about your own physical insecurities without using fatphobic tropes. We welcome our friend Aaron Randle to Surface Level. He is an experienced journalist and podcast producer. He’s also a fellow son of Howard University who entered our Harlem circle about a year ago. Earlier this year Aaron took to his very active Twitter to speak on the topic of fatphobia not only as a theory but on how it is furthered from those around him. This led to many meaningful discussions, debates, and questions regarding the topic. Exploring his experience regarding a topic that our privilege allowed us to ignore felt like the perfect topic for Surface Level. We’ve said before that we are curious because we know a lot but we don’t know it all. In this instance we wade into sensitive waters but hope we gave this topic the respect and open minds to listen that it deserves.
S2 E6 · Wed, December 02, 2020
No Lesbians Allowed
Damon, Jordan & Tony are curious about the experiences of Black Queer women. This episode discusses how Black Queer women fit into the broader movement for the liberation of all Queer people. Can we as Queer men be doing more to understand and support Queer women? We discuss Queer women in entertainment, the positive and negative effects of the LGBTQIA umbrella, the role Black women play in the feminist movement, the differences in the gay and lesbian social scenes, and get playful while being schooled on the labels within the lesbian community. We welcome an amazing guest Dr. Frances Armas-Edwards to Surface Level. She is an equity, diversity and inclusion expert, leadership coach, and educator. She brings both personal experience and professional knowledge to this conversation. Together we explore the intersections of our identity through race, gender, and sexuality. We are excited to expand our exploration of Black and Queer life and include a perspective totally different from our own. We learned a ton in this episode, and we hope that our curiosity about this topic sparks many more conversations.ope that our curiosity about this topic sparks many more conversations.
S2 E5 · Wed, November 25, 2020
Broke With Expensive Taste
Damon, Jordan & Tony are curious about how to create generational wealth. This episode discusses the effects of long and short term financial investments. Do we care too much about immediate gratification in making financial decisions? We discuss the luxuries we can’t live without, the value of social interactions in professional development, the desire to possess status symbols, the worst financial decisions we’ve made, and how we’ve gotten a better handle on our spending over time. Don’t be fooled by all the topics, this is not your average financial freedom seminar. We still bring the laughs and the shade like only Surface Level can. As three Black Queer men who are the first in our families to explore our current financial landscape, we hope above all, not to be the last!
S2 E4 · Wed, November 18, 2020
Undetectable
Damon, Jordan & Tony are curious about the ongoing stigma regarding HIV. This episode discusses our lived experiences as Black Queer men with and without HIV. How can we collectively work to remove the stigma and educate people about HIV in 2020? We discuss our individual HIV statuses, the shift in our perception of HIV over the years, the intersection of art and activism, the science behind being undetectable, the role of negative individuals in removing stigmatization, and any advice for individuals newly diagnosed. The episode, easily one of our most personal, also welcomes Dimitri Moïse into the Surface Level family. His vast list of accolades include being a Broadway performer, magazine editor, and a national HIV activist. Dimitri has used the combination of his own positive diagnosis with his public platform to shed light on the reality of HIV in 2020 and help inspire people all over the world. He shares a beautiful moment with the hosts in witnessing one of the guys speak publicly for the first time about being positive. In true Surface Level fashion we still laugh and have a lot of fun, but with this episode in particular we hope to inspire our listeners to lead with compassion, listen to science, and shed beliefs not based in reality, as we do our part in chipping away at this decades old stigma
Trailer · Wed, November 11, 2020
Surface Level Season 2 Trailer
Damon, Tony, and Jordan are back for Season 2!We promise to keep it Blackitty Black, very Queer, full of laughs, and always smart.So if you’re curious…this is Surface Level.
S2 E3 · Wed, November 11, 2020
Sup? Looking? Into?
Damon, Jordan & Tony are curious about the expectations associated with dating in our thirties. This episode discusses what we look for in both casual and serious encounters with other Queer men. Are our expectations on dating becoming unrealistic or more clear as we age? We discuss hookup culture, Grindr interactions, shifting dating expectations, the value we place on finding forever partners, and when to establish relationship needs with a new partner. Dating in New York City is the best of times and the worst of times all wrapped in one. Layering In the experiences of being Black and Queer creates the perfect storm of complexities. We hope to gain clarity on our desires with time, but we can’t say for sure if that is yet the case.
S2 E2 · Wed, November 11, 2020
A Little Off the Top
Damon, Jordan & Tony are curious about the queer experience in the traditionally cishet barbershop environment. This episode discusses our interactions with the barbershop as youth and adults. Do we have a reason to feel unwelcomed in this environment or is it all in our heads? We discuss our favorite past hairstyles, rap culture in barbershops, how we engage in shop talk, queer expression and acceptance in barbershops, and the ideal space if we were to create one ourselves. The shop is a part of our community that we cannot escape. As one of our hosts said, we can’t go downtown to get our hair cut with scissors. Is this cultural space doing all it can to welcome Black people from all walks of life, we’ll explore that here?
S2 E1 · Wed, November 11, 2020
Haus of Representatives
Damon, Jordan & Tony are curious about what is next for a nation divided. This episode discusses our current engagement with politics in what will surely go down as the grand finale to one of the most tumultuous presidential terms in history. Is this America, or an anomaly in the journey of this country? We discuss the presidential election, Black women’s role in politics, the flood of new Queer politicians at all levels of government, how money affects politics, and all things Queen Kamala Harris. We are also excited to welcome our first ever guest and fellow Howard Bison, Dorien Blythers. His political track record includes having worked as a Field Organizer for Barack Obama’s 2012 re-election and as Regional Political Director for Senator Kamala Harris’ presidential campaign. He’s currently a Political Director at End Citizens United. Bringing his expertise into this conversation is sure to make it a rewarding experience for all who need a bit more clarity on exactly where we go from here.
S1 E10 · Wed, August 05, 2020
Beyond The Surface Level
Damon, Jordan & Tony are Black, Queer, and curious. This episode discusses what this experience has meant to us and revisits the season through the lens of crowd sourced questions. We discuss our favorite episodes, the friction between Damon and Jordan, reactions to he podcast from friends, family, and colleagues, any strain this project has placed on our friendship, adjustments we made due to quarantine, and the biggest impact Surface Level has had on the three hosts. We began this process with a simple focus on curiosity. We kicked off confident in our ability to address topics with care and authenticity, while understanding that our voices only represented the experiences of three individuals. This episode was built around our desire to serve and be a voice for community. In the quest to learn and grow from this project we will continue to challenge our audience and each other to #STAYCURIOUS. EP 10 | BEYOND THE SURFACE LEVEL Download
S1 E9 · Wed, July 29, 2020
Call Tyrone (And My Therapist)
Damon, Jordan & Tony are curious about what defines “successful” relationships. This episode discusses our experiences with dating in New York City. Are there lessons to be learned and applied to every relationship or should each experience be evaluated on its own? We discuss music therapy, our longest previous relationships, what dating life has looked like recently, our views on monogamy, and the most surprising things we’ve learned from previous entanglements. Relationships are centered on clear agreements. The commitment to those agreements and what they are is different for all individuals. Every experience we have in life shapes us to be more complex version of ourselves. Combining all of who we are with another in hopes of a shared lifetime experience is a monumental goal, even for the best of us. To remove some of that pressure we think back to a Jesse Boykins lyric on love. “People live their whole lives trying to find it. Even if it’s for a second or for a minute If somebody can experience what it is to be loved and love truly that’s what w'e’re here for.”
S1 E8 · Wed, July 22, 2020
Is It Because I'm Black-ish?
Damon, Jordan & Tony are curious about privilege within the Black community. This episode discusses the nuance of Black experience. Are there set topics where we should focus on community more than individually? We discuss the “Blackest" cultural experiences, our connection to the places where we grew up compared to New York City, privileges we possess, the balance of checking our privilege compared to dimming our light, and just a few Black cards we’d like to revoke. According to Joe Biden, if you don’t for for him you ain’t Black. With a collective eye roll we agreed that our history, present, and future are too vast to be dwindled into such sweeping assertions. We delve into how the intersections our race, sexuality, body types, and skin tones add layers to our experiences both inside and out of our community. Those individual experiences create the multiplicity that fuels a community that should recognize both the pain and joy in all of its members.
S1 E7 · Wed, July 15, 2020
We Can't Be Friends
Damon, Jordan & Tony are curious about the give and take in defining friendship. This episode discusses the expectations we place on friendship. Is there a set definition of our relationships with others or does it evolve over time? We discuss each other’s most annoying traits, the line between friend and associate, rules or lack there of around friends and exes, when it’s time to break up with a friend, and how our internal struggles manifest in our relationships with others. The term friend is thrown around so often that it can sometimes feel empty. After spending a decade building our bond we share the things that have made it both successful and challenging. In the end, that connection looks quite different today than it did in our early twenties. There is one concept we all agree on - if there is no growth in a friendship, there is definitely not a chance for longevity.
S1 E6 · Wed, July 08, 2020
The Magical Negro Is OOO
Damon, Jordan & Tony are curious about why being Black at work is so hard. This episode discusses the part of our lives where code switching is not only encouraged but often expected. Are the expectations of Black employees too high for any human to consistently meet? We discuss our experiences in corporate America, assimilation and if it is the route to success, the pressure to represent our entire race in the workplace, and how we can make being Black at work less rare. Far too often in New York people tend to start conversations asking the condescending question, “what do you do?” For us, the answer isn’t simply the expected banter of disclosing our profession. We are Black, queer, creative professionals trying to bring the best parts of ourselves to an environment that was never set up for us to succeed, and we’re expected to do it all with a smile.
S1 E5 · Wed, July 01, 2020
#STUNTQUEENZ
Damon, Jordan & Tony are curious about the price of fabricating our lives for Instagram. This episode discusses the life we live compared to the one we feel compelled to portray on social media. How often are sharing real moments vs ones created, purely for the currency of likes? We discuss our Instagram flirting styles, online stunts that we’ve personally pulled, influencer culture, the negative effects of creating a false digital persona, and digital content we love. The world is moving further and further towards digital interaction. Access to technology started this and the experience of quarantine amplified it. We explore where the line is drawn between aspiration and fabrication, or if there really is one at all.
S1 E4 · Tue, June 23, 2020
Dad, I’m A Bottom
Damon, Jordan & Tony are curious about the acceptance of queerness among Black men. This episode discusses coming out to our fathers and the impact it had on each of our relationships. Can there be healing from a relationship splintered from coming out? How have our dads fought against the stigma of homophobia among Black men? We discuss celebrity dads we love, the joy and pain of coming out to our fathers, censoring our sexuality around other Black men, and the types of dads we would like to be. The process of coming out for any queer person is an act that can greatly alter their relationships with others. The bond between father and son is one that we explore in hopes of normalizing love between all Black men. The one thing we all want is to experience love no matter how we identify.
S1 E3 · Fri, June 12, 2020
Last Scene & Last Season
Damon, Jordan & Tony are curious about the space we give artists to be flawed before cancellation. This episode evaluates artists for who they are as people. In the age of social media the expectation is that people let you into their lives. They craft their persona in a way that exposes their talent but also their flaws. And we take every opportunity to evaluate each of them. We discuss artists we couldn’t cancel, a certain host’s obsession with Keri Hilson, the social responsibility of public figures; the poster couple of cancel culture Kimye, and the lines people have to cross before we pull the plug on supporting them. Are we wrong for loving certain bops even if they are made by trash a human? Let’s evaluate what those qualifiers are. In the end we’re all human and need room to screw up, learn, and grow. Yes, there are absolute wrongs but maybe we spend some time understanding that culture should accept growth without the knee jerk desire to cancel.
S1 E2 · Fri, June 12, 2020
The Trade Is Ruining My Life
Damon, Jordan & Tony are curious about the value of masculinity. This episode explores the masc obsession, specifically in the queer community. We work, we worship, we date, we make love, we exercise, we live all through the guise of our relationship with and the external opinions of where we land on the “butch” scale. We discuss gentlemen we’d keep, freak & delete, chasing trade, butching it up when we’re around the heteros, learning to love our femininity, and the parts of the journey to seasoned butch queen that are still in progress. There is a Moses Sumney lyric that reads, “I insist upon my right to be multiple, even more so I insist upon the recognition of my multiplicity. All things encompassed in one...” We are three versions of many things combined into individuals who want to live as free as possible. In that quest for freedom as Black queer men, we’re looking to place value in all parts of us, not just those that are expected.
S1 E1 · Fri, June 12, 2020
The Politics Of Quarantine
Damon, Jordan & Tony are curious about the world we could create if we did not fear sacrifice. Our first episode comes at a moment defined by a health crisis that disproportionately affects Black people, and police violence towards Black people…or what our community would call a normal day in America. We discuss the strain of being confined to our New York City apartments for months, shifting to a way of life in which we were forced to be socially distant(ish), our favorite social media breakout stars, and glimmers of hope that our Black queer lives will start to matter in this country. If mattering is the end goal, how are we supposed to get there? Voting, protesting, rioting, digital campaigns, making space in professional environments? The answers of “how” vary greatly between us and the conversation gets tense at times, pushing the borders of comfort that our friendship typically inhabits. Well, our first sacrifice is comfort in trying to create a world where our Black queer lives matter.
Trailer · Wed, June 03, 2020
Surface Level Trailer
A show that takes a look at society’s expectations and rejects the ones we don’t see it for — all from the perspective of three black, queer best friends.
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